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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 12:21:35 GMT -6
I'm a huge Tyra Buss fan. But, this is insanity. She has been a coach for 2 women's games in her entire career. And now she is going to take over the Men's program? I mean.... This isn't rational thinking. At all. Not to mention she is coaching under someone who may not got a head SIAC job if he was let go. Before I'm accused of being closed minded, this isn't insanity because she is a female, it is insane because she is not even close to being prepared for that type of job. I think this is an interesting topic in general, not specifics. I suppose somebody who likes things to be wired properly thinks this needs to be an 'off-topic' ... but it's not. PW's comments are, to me, the sort of approach UE and other Midwestern mid-major programs need to step up and address ... how to win the fight against being shoved into the drawer called "diversionary sports" while the P6 programs feast at the main table. Now, just hiring a woman -- any woman -- to run a men's program is something that requires more than just a "That won't work" approach. No, it probably won't if your idea of successful coaching is a guy who averages zero conference wins every year. I don't know if I can name 5 women's coaches, let alone 5 who ought to move ahead of the 18 or 19 "assistant" coaches out there now who model suits pretty well and have nice ties. Tyra Buss may end up being the best new coach in the country, or she may weary of it and get a position in the "administration" and enjoy the 9-to-5 without the headaches. So move past the "Tyra Buss isn't qualified" train of thought and move over to "How does UE compete in a world that's got one foot in the air ready to stop on their head." Can a woman win at UE? So far nobody has asked that question outside this forum and so far ... well ... the men aren't exactly doing that, are they? |
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Post by evilleman on Dec 7, 2020 12:53:42 GMT -6
I'm a huge Tyra Buss fan. But, this is insanity. She has been a coach for 2 women's games in her entire career. And now she is going to take over the Men's program? I mean.... This isn't rational thinking. At all. Not to mention she is coaching under someone who may not got a head SIAC job if he was let go. Before I'm accused of being closed minded, this isn't insanity because she is a female, it is insane because she is not even close to being prepared for that type of job. I think this is an interesting topic in general, not specifics. I suppose somebody who likes things to be wired properly thinks this needs to be an 'off-topic' ... but it's not. PW's comments are, to me, the sort of approach UE and other Midwestern mid-major programs need to step up and address ... how to win the fight against being shoved into the drawer called "diversionary sports" while the P6 programs feast at the main table. Now, just hiring a woman -- any woman -- to run a men's program is something that requires more than just a "That won't work" approach. No, it probably won't if your idea of successful coaching is a guy who averages zero conference wins every year. I don't know if I can name 5 women's coaches, let alone 5 who ought to move ahead of the 18 or 19 "assistant" coaches out there now who model suits pretty well and have nice ties. Tyra Buss may end up being the best new coach in the country, or she may weary of it and get a position in the "administration" and enjoy the 9-to-5 without the headaches. So move past the "Tyra Buss isn't qualified" train of thought and move over to "How does UE compete in a world that's got one foot in the air ready to stop on their head." Can a woman win at UE? So far nobody has asked that question outside this forum and so far ... well ... the men aren't exactly doing that, are they? PW's comments weren't just about hiring a woman in general. There was a definitive target of a candidate so I commented on that candidate. The last paragraph of your post is sort of out there. So because men coaches haven't been winning here let's go hire a woman and see? I'm quite unsure what gender has to do with any of this. We have hired a white man and a black man and neither of those have worked out. Maybe we should hire a Latino or Asian man and try that? How about we hire the best candidate regardless of their gender, race, sexuality, religion, etc. Find the best basketball coach. Lastly, to more of the topic I would have no problem hiring a female. I do think it needs to be a female that is involved in the male game. Handling a team of men is far different than handling a team of women. That is why Geno hasn't gotten a great men's opportunity. The game plays different and handling the team and individuals is different. Similar to how many college coaches struggle when going to the pros. Different game and different mentality. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 13:00:16 GMT -6
I'm a huge Tyra Buss fan. But, this is insanity. She has been a coach for 2 women's games in her entire career. And now she is going to take over the Men's program? I mean.... This isn't rational thinking. At all. Not to mention she is coaching under someone who may not got a head SIAC job if he was let go. Before I'm accused of being closed minded, this isn't insanity because she is a female, it is insane because she is not even close to being prepared for that type of job. It’s also not three years from now, a central ingredient in my suggestion. You’ve built a straw woman argument. I didn’t say she was ready. But weather she or any other assistant is ready now is not completely knowable. On paper, Merfeld was ready. Marty was ready. McCarty was ready. But ready for what? Certainly not winning. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 13:06:48 GMT -6
PW's comments weren't just about hiring a woman in general. There was a definitive target of a candidate so I commented on that candidate. The last paragraph of your post is sort of out there. So because men coaches haven't been winning here let's go hire a woman and see? I'm quite unsure what gender has to do with any of this. We have hired a white man and a black man and neither of those have worked out. Maybe we should hire a Latino or Asian man and try that? How about we hire the best candidate regardless of their gender, race, sexuality, religion, etc. Find the best basketball coach. Well, I am certainly not trying to pick a fight over this. I think it's a conversation that has no legs because we have nothing to discuss. We can make anything up as a way of advancing the conversation and we can build a stone wall to prevent it from going anywhere. Nobody gets to be right about this and nobody is being ridiculed for having an opinion about something that isn't based on any facts or even anecdotal data. What we know is that UE will need a head coach for every game. |
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Post by evilleman on Dec 7, 2020 13:15:40 GMT -6
I'm a huge Tyra Buss fan. But, this is insanity. She has been a coach for 2 women's games in her entire career. And now she is going to take over the Men's program? I mean.... This isn't rational thinking. At all. Not to mention she is coaching under someone who may not got a head SIAC job if he was let go. Before I'm accused of being closed minded, this isn't insanity because she is a female, it is insane because she is not even close to being prepared for that type of job. It’s also not three years from now, a central ingredient in my suggestion. You’ve built a straw woman argument. I didn’t say she was ready. But weather she or any other assistant is ready now is not completely knowable. On paper, Merfeld was ready. Marty was ready. McCarty was ready. But ready for what? Certainly not winning. So because I disagree with you it is now a straw woman argument? Because I think 3 years of coaching with a bad coach (if he survives that long) would make someone qualified to run the means team? Ruffing is 25-97 in 4 plus seasons. What a great learning tool for any coach to be able to work under him. I'm going to have to go back and look up the definition of strawman... Webster's must have changed it since my schooling. |
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Post by evilleman on Dec 7, 2020 13:17:43 GMT -6
PW's comments weren't just about hiring a woman in general. There was a definitive target of a candidate so I commented on that candidate. The last paragraph of your post is sort of out there. So because men coaches haven't been winning here let's go hire a woman and see? I'm quite unsure what gender has to do with any of this. We have hired a white man and a black man and neither of those have worked out. Maybe we should hire a Latino or Asian man and try that? How about we hire the best candidate regardless of their gender, race, sexuality, religion, etc. Find the best basketball coach. Well, I am certainly not trying to pick a fight over this. I think it's a conversation that has no legs because we have nothing to discuss. We can make anything up as a way of advancing the conversation and we can build a stone wall to prevent it from going anywhere. Nobody gets to be right about this and nobody is being ridiculed for having an opinion about something that isn't based on any facts or even anecdotal data. What we know is that UE will need a head coach for every game. Not a stone wall at all. I just don't think the thought process should be men haven't worked.... let's try a woman. I have a stone wall about that line of thinking.... not a woman being our coach. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 14:53:53 GMT -6
Evilleman asks why not just hire the "best qualified." Every coach the Aces have hired was deemed by the deciders to be the best qualified. No, make that every coach ever hired by anyone. The bottom 100 teams in D1 are coached by someone who is the best qualified according to the ones with the checkbook. They are the best qualified until they aren't. Most of them are lucky to receive one contract extension and very few are around for a 2nd. Best qualified is usually just the best guess and more often than not it's a big donor's choice. Well-heeled friends of best qualified Marty hugged him until the arena was empty. So who's the best qualified to know who's best qualified? Someone who has been involved in basketball since the cradle or someone who owns a new car dealership? Money is not wisdom, it's money.
I've read numerous opinions here about how we should hire this assistant or that one because they sit on the same bench with a millionaire coaching god. Winning the assistant coaching lottery is not proof of competence, it just opens doors. The best coach in America might be a people-person motivational speaker with a PhD in psychology and a deep passion for basketball. We'll never know because that's not how the "best qualified" game works.
Is Tyra Buss a better choice that Mary Fill-in-the-Blank? Beats me. I do know that we can't hire the first male Asian head coach or the first male Hispanic head coach. Someone already beat us to that and it wouldn't carry the same buzz as hiring the first female head coach. It wouldn't create any buzz at all. Ironically, while there are zero female D1 men's basketball head coaches, 40% of the women's teams are coached by men. It doesn't even raise the tiniest eyebrow. I guess only men, even the very short fat ones who've never touched a rim, can fully understand the above the rim style of men's basketball. Nonsense.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 15:31:06 GMT -6
The only question you need to answer is: Is this the best person for the program -- now and in the future?
But it IS time we discussed, at least as fans, the type of program we expect to see (which is NOT the same thing as the program we WANT to see) in the next few years based on what we've seen since 2016. I don't know that UE is close enough to either end of the pole -- falling off the end or climbing to the next level. Lately, we've gotten the crappy end of that pole. There are still thousands of UE fans who long for the days of sleeves, packed arenas and home games against Purdue and Butler. I am in that group, though I am realistic. I don't expect that again, but I'd prefer we don't end up like Chicago State.
Again, I can't name 5 women who ought to be considered for an emerging D-1 men's program ... and to say that UE is emerging is somewhat bizarre but that's where they are. Just like New Jersey Tech or Longwood or one of those schools you never heard of ... Utah Valley or some such. I also can't name 5 MEN who would be in the same interview process.
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Post by E-Villan on Dec 7, 2020 15:39:42 GMT -6
Is your 40% of women's teams are coached by men statement a fact, or just a guess? I have no idea, but I do know in the MVC, it is 10%. Lucky us.
If your question is strictly could a woman successfully coach a men's team, then yes, I think it is entirely possible. With that, go ahead and get your sexist cards out, but I think as a rule (yes, I know all about Geno) that a woman can relate to the women players and that game better than a guy..and vise-versa. Do you honestly think Matt Ruffing has the same rapport with his team as a Pat Summitt, Muffet McGraw or even a Kelly Harper?
Splash hires only work out if they are successful. Otherwise, they bring more recognition to the failure. CBS News made a "splash hire" when they named the first female lead anchor to take Dan Rathers' place. Katie Couric succeeded in collecting some serious coin, but the move failed miserably. CBS News languished in last place, a far cry from the days of Walter Cronkite. Couric didn't fail because she was a woman, but she proved that finding the right person instead of the right gender or race is the correct way to fill a position.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 18:27:39 GMT -6
Is your 40% of women's teams are coached by men statement a fact, or just a guess? I have no idea, but I do know in the MVC, it is 10%. Lucky us. With that, go ahead and get your sexist cards out... Splash hires only work out if they are successful. Otherwise, they bring more recognition to the failure. CBS News made a "splash hire" when they named the first female lead anchor to take Dan Rathers' place. Not a guess. But not current. My figures are from 2019. The actual percentage was 39% men, 61% women, I rounded up, my apology. The high was in 2010 when 66% of women's teams were coached by men. I'm not playing a sexist card. Quite the opposite, I'm saying that women are as capable of coaching men as men are at coaching women. How is that a sexist card and your card isn't? But maybe you also believe that men should only be taught by male science and history teachers who understand the male condition. Jeez. Speaking of splash hires, Steve Merfeld was carried off the floor at Hampton and dropped off at Carson Center before his feet hit the ground. Epic fail. For the last ten years he has been an assistant at perennial 20-game winner Creighton so I suspect that somewhere there is a fan base that would like to lure that successful assistant coach to launch their rebuild. As for CBS, Norah O'Donnell has been their part-time anchor and now their full-time anchor for ten years. Sometimes female "splash hires" turn out just fine. But I get it, Evansville is 100 feet from Selma, Alabama. It will never be a trailblazer in anything. It will curl up and hire safe male locals from Illinois (Crews, Simmons, Hollander?) or Indiana (McCarty, Butler's Lickliter). It chose local McCarty over two other finalists in Evansville natives Cheney and Ragland. If you throw a rock in any direction you could hit the next ten Aces coaches. The beat goes on. |
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Post by aces44 on Dec 7, 2020 18:33:11 GMT -6
Some people like to Die on Insane Hill’s....
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Post by db1972 on Dec 7, 2020 23:37:37 GMT -6
I've read numerous opinions here about how we should hire this assistant or that one because they sit on the same bench with a millionaire coaching god. Winning the assistant coaching lottery is not proof of competence, it just opens doors. The best coach in America might be a people-person motivational speaker with a PhD in psychology and a deep passion for basketball. We'll never know because that's not how the "best qualified" game works. Obviously there is no one "right" decision when determining who your next coach is, but I don't think you're giving the current process enough credit. The odds of finding the next wunderkind coach who's a PhD in psychology and has not been around the game are astronomically slim. Sure, you still don't have great odds to get a phenomenal coach when you pick over another program's assistants, but I'm willing to bet your chance of success is a hell of a lot better. Experience is generally correlated with additional knowledge, which is never a bad thing to have. I also could be wrong about this, but I highly doubt most of the male head coaches for women's teams got that gig without having extensive experience coaching women's basketball. As somebody in this thread mentioned earlier, coaching men and women are two entirely different animals. There is a very short list of women who would meet that experience criteria to head up a men's basketball program. I don't necessarily think that's correct as I am sure there are plenty of competent women who are not getting the chance they want and deserve. But, since that is the current situation, I do not believe any women will get a shot to run a men's D1 program before 2030. And I certainly don't think Tyra Buss in 3 years is any way a good option for the Aces since she will lack that experience. And before you start hating on me for being a sexist, I would argue the same thing if the roles were reversed. In the case of a women's head coaching spot being available, I think whoever has the experience coaching women would have the greatest chance to succeed. If that means picking a well-respected female assistant on a D1 women's team over rolling the dice on a hotshot former male player who is currently coaching men, I believe that's the way it should be. I'm fairly confident PurpleWhiskers is going to lay into me for why experience doesn't matter, I'm being closed-minded, yada yada. More than happy to provide a couple of real-life scenarios to prove my point if need be. So come at me, I'm prepared. |
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Post by ncace on Dec 8, 2020 5:32:45 GMT -6
I'm also a big Tyra Buss fan. She comes from a whole family of coaches, she's a winner, and she'll have a lot of impact on women's basketball at UE. She'll also recruit some women to the program that will exceed our expectations. However, there's a lot of work to do, both on M and W teams.
We can talk about whether Tyra might fit as a men's coach somewhere, but in reality, it is much more likely that she'll rise to a head coaching job for a NCAAW team in 2, max 3 years. If UE is smart, they will drop our current HC for women and position her in that role next year. Otherwise, if UE has ANY measurable success this year (maybe the women win 10 games), it could be construed as progress for Ruffing, and we all know that he will not be the person responsible for that success.
Tyra Buss is a focused, no nonsense athlete, and a potential elite coach who has all the right ingredients to be a HC very early in her career. I don't discount that additional women might be successful coaching at some level in NCAAM, the NFL, whatever, but wherever UE goes for their next HC after Lickliter, they need to get it right. They also need to get it right when they replace Spencer.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2020 8:09:57 GMT -6
I've read numerous opinions here about how we should hire this assistant or that one because they sit on the same bench with a millionaire coaching god. Winning the assistant coaching lottery is not proof of competence, it just opens doors. The best coach in America might be a people-person motivational speaker with a PhD in psychology and a deep passion for basketball. We'll never know because that's not how the "best qualified" game works. I'm fairly confident PurpleWhiskers is going to lay into me for why experience doesn't matter, I'm being closed-minded, yada yada. Nope. You have taken the time to write a well-reasoned, well-written opinion. I "lay into" people who are intellectually lazy and offer effortless drive-by snipes. You don't fit that description. Thank you for offering the gift of time and reason. |
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Post by Tom Servo on Dec 8, 2020 8:11:39 GMT -6
Good points in this thread - interesting read.
The only thing I will say - in regards to UE coaching hires. One could certainly argue - the only coaches we have hired that were actually ready for the job were Dick Walters, Jim Crews and (maybe) Marty Simmons. Here are my reasons why:
Dick Walters - Right after the plane crash UE needed someone who could really sell the program and bring in talent quickly - so they went after someone who had coached at the JUCO level (I think - before my time). He was able to quickly rebuild from a disaster - the problems started once his flamboyant attitude and antics started to rub people the wrong way when he stopped winning.
Jim Crews - To me this was obviously our best hire and best coach at the D1 level (one could argue all time at UE - but I won't). I think people don't realize the hiring of Jim Crews at the time in 1985 would be the equivalent of hiring the top assistant from Duke, Michigan State, or whoever you consider to be the top program now. People can say what they want about Knight but at that time he was considered by a lot of people to be the best there was. It was a big hire and I'm sure we forked out a lot of money to make it happen - and it certainly paid off.
Simmons - Simmons was hired to bring back the magic of the Jim Crews era. Unfortunately, Simmons forgot some of the things that worked very well under Jim Crews - multiple shooters, big forwards who could score, etc. If he would have been a little less stubborn, and a little more flexible - I strongly believe he would have had a lot of success - cause some of his teams were very close to being really good. I think the thing that hurt him the most was his time in D2. I think some bad habits got brought back from that time period that he tried to implement here - recruiting guards who couldn't score or shoot, recruiting small 4 men who didn't have anything they did really well, etc. Those things really cost him at crucial times during his tenure here. And one thing I will reiterate - the motion offense was not the problem with Marty Simmons. The motion offense itself is actually a pretty intelligent thing to run because it can neutralize the other teams superior athletic ability. Any offense with a lot of cutting and movement is good. Any offense with a lot of standing and dribbling is bad.
Now - the other hires:
Merfeld - I don't know how many of you listen to 70s and 80s rock/pop music but I do. And there are a lot of songs from that time called "one hit wonders" - and that's exactly what Merfeld was. It was actually a terrible hire because he had no background in the Midwest for recruiting (internet wasn't what it is now - had to do much more recruiting in person at that time). He coached in one of the worst conferences in the country (MEAC) and to make the jump to the MVC was pretty huge. Just because someone wins one game in the NCAA tourney doesn't mean they are ready to make a huge jump like he tried to do.
McCarty - This will go down as the worst hire in UE history. I know there were a couple of us who were skeptical at the time of this hire. I got on board once he hired his assistants - but it was certainly clear he had virtually no experience at this level of play. NBA and NCAA are completely different animals. The more I think about this hire - the worse it was. You cannot win at Evansville running a vanilla offense trying to beat teams with athletic ability (expecting our guards to beat their guards off the dribble to score points). Not going to happen - ever. We have to be a little more creative than that. |
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